Web Payments Community Group Telecon

Minutes for 2011-09-02

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2011Aug/0030.html
Topics
  1. Introductions
  2. Resources
  3. Web Payment Goals
  4. Meetings
Chair
Manu Sporny
Scribe
Manu Sporny
Present
Manu Sporny, Dmitry Gorilovsky, Jeff Sayre, Pelle Braendgaard, Dave Longley, David I. Lehn, Mike Johnson
Audio Log
Manu Sporny is scribing.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: I'd like discuss additional P2P monetary transaction resources.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: We should discuss when to have monthly meetings.
Manu Sporny: Every two weeks was intent.

Topic: Introductions

Jeff Sayre: My name is Jeff Sayre, involved in Open Source tech for a number of years, been interested in federated social web
... very interested in privacy, WebID - interested in Web Payments... written a number of articles on payments. Newest push is differentiating Web 2.0 startups from Web 3.0 "Smartups".
... very interested in pushing an open web payment standards.
Pelle Braendgaard: Hi I'm Pelle Brandengard, one of the main guys behind OpenTransact... been working on payments for over 12 years. My startup is PicoMoney - service provider for creating virtual currencies.
Pelle Braendgaard: Been working on standards w/ exactly same purpose as PaySwarm - we need some standards on this stuff. We need something at a lower level than PaySwarm, want a really simple basic standard for every single type of payment you can imagine.
Pelle Braendgaard: Very important to not just look at individual use cases - think holistically.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: I am from Dmitry Gorilovsky from Aintsys corporation based in Russia. We are focused on monetary technologies, transactions protocols for P2P money.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: Very helpful for companies that want digital P2P currencies for everyone.
Dave Longley: no mic
David I. Lehn: I work at Digital Bazaar, been here working on Bitmunk (P2P music) - working on various bits and pieces to PaySwarm.
Dave Longley: I'm the CTO of Digital Bazaar, been working on decentralized/P2P distribution of digital goods, culminating in PaySwarm work.
Dave Longley: been working with manu for about 7 years or so.
Dave Longley: also do some work in semantic web, eg: JSON-LD.
Manu Sporny: Manu Sporny, founder of Digital Bazaar. Company purpose to help people buy and sell digital goods over the web. Focused on putting financial technology in peoples hands. Worked with P2P payments in the past. Involved in semantic web technologies: RDF, JSON-LD, RDFa. Need to use those for listing assets. Look at problems holistically. Very interested in creating patent and royalty free standards. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]

Topic: Resources

Manu explains the voip bridge/IRC bot.
Manu Sporny: GitHub site has minutes and payswarm.com site source. Everything open and transparent and recorded. Anyone can listen to audio and text logs, see source code for web sites and specs. Commits go live immediately. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Manu Sporny: Also a wiki on web payments community site. Should start collecting links and other information. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Manu Sporny: WordPress demo of PaySwarm demo and source is available. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Manu Sporny: Good to take a look at demo to understand the PaySwarm idea in practice. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Manu Sporny: Dmitry, you wanted to talk about P2P payment systems as resources? [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Dmitry Gorilovsky: Yes, but will shift to next call to to prepare interactive demos. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
David I. Lehn: what are we using to track issues? github for per-project issues or should we use w3 community site issue tracker?
Manu explains other resources.
Pelle Braendgaard: I prefer the github issue tracker - we can start out using that one.
David I. Lehn: github has api for issues (i think?) so we might be able to migrate issues if needed
Manu Sporny: Advantage of W3C tracker is that issues are automatically linked in mailing list archives. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Jeff Sayre: Github is my preference as well.
Dave Longley: +1 github
Mike Johnson: +1 github
Manu Sporny: Ok, looks like we'll use github for issue tracking.

Topic: Web Payment Goals

Let's use the following as discussion points:
Value transfer (core payment)
Discoverability of assets and payment methods
Offer creation and discoverability
Offer acceptance / Digital Contracts / Proof of Purchase
Manu Sporny: Asks Pelle to talk about value transfer due to work on OpenTransact and bare minimum to build on. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Pelle Braendgaard: Really, the issue is simply - paying someone something. It doesn't have to be a dollar amount, it can also be transferring an asset to someone.
Pelle Braendgaard: We wanted to base it on HTTP - look at resources - look at URIs as assets - post to that w/ a couple of parameters and that's value transfer.
Pelle Braendgaard: This is the core underlying payment in any of these use cases.
Pelle Braendgaard: I see a standard like this to be able to replace just about any other payment-related system that are used right now in banking.
Manu Sporny: So you would like to see us reduce this down to minimum so other more complex systems can be built on top. Approach from simplicity instead of a gigantic system. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Pelle Braendgaard: All of these things should be usable on their own - for example, certain applications will not have a need for discoverability... but all of them will need value transfer.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: We're talking about agreements - whole system needs - money emissions - we should be able to manage small payments between peers.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: We need to understand peer-to-peer aspect of it.
Jeff Sayre: I think that makes sense - I'd like to explore PaySwarm spec as it currently exists - see which parts are applicable to the overall group. There is a lot of it that is pretty simple already - need to look more into OpenTransact.
Manu Sporny: We want to pull in other folks from Bitcoin, Ben and RipplePay, and meta currency folks. Want to do due diligence on other payment systems to make sure we cover as many use cases as we can without over complicating the spec.
Jeff Sayre: We may want to look at the current alternatives - we want to discuss this - lets see where the commonalities exist between PaySwarm and the alternatives. We should have a good understanding after we start doing those types of comparison.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: We should talk about common standard for P2P payment standards like Bitcoin... do a quick presentation on this stuff. P2P payments - will cover that. Prospective directions.
Manu Sporny: We absolutely need to understand these technologies in depth before proposing a solution that we say covers something when we don't. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Pelle Braendgaard: Peer-to-peer is very, very important.
Manu Sporny: We've been using the word "decentralized" so as not to push complexity of P2P systems on to the clients. Ability to have a decentralized system is important. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Pelle Braendgaard: P2P is person-to-person, not specifically a peer-to-peer transfer - PayPal could be defined as peer-to-peer / person-to-person.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: Ah, yes - "pure" P2P is not required, but is nice.
Dave Longley: There will still be authorities that can enforce contracts, but they will be decentralized, which means person-to-person will interact with some kind of decentralized authority. In person-to-person there will be 3 parties, not just 2.
Jeff Sayre: Yes, that clarifies the issue for me - we should model the payment standard off of the way the Web is modeled - decentralized. If P2P means person-to-person that's good.
Manu Sporny: Security and other issues with Bitcoin. Not necessarily a standard Digital Bazaar is working towards. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Dave Longley: (Not to mention all kinds of government and taxation issues)
Jeff Sayre: Yes, I think that makes sense - I agree with that. We shouldn't make assumptions and form opinions on things beyond community scope. There are economic issues w/ the bitcoin monetary supply. We should figure out a way to allow alternative currencies to interface in an appropriate way.
Dave Longley: We should avoid that as much as possible.
Dave Longley: The standard shouldn't force particular currencies, it should be able to be used with any viable currency.
Jeff Sayre: via modules - you could tie in and offer/extend the payment standard to allow alternative currencies. Supporting infrastructure is there - but we would not want it in base protocol (bitcoin in core protocol). You need to make sure that this is open to other alternatives - not integrate directly.
Dave Longley: but implementing a currency should not be part of the standard.
Pelle Braendgaard: I agree completely. Bitcoin itself is not HTTP - it's not Web at it's core. However, the core value transfer of Bitcoin MtGox could implement PaySwarm. We're not talking about underlying economic principles here. Since this is a Web Payment - we're talking about the Web.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: Yes, I think that's fine, probably - I'll add some comments later on - next call. I don't want to discuss Bitcoin on the first call - it's a big topic. Not a topic we want to get into on the first call. We shouldn't get into it today.
Jeff Sayre: I think that we should clarify - the payment standard is a "Web" payment standard... the "Mobile" based Internet is not two separate things. We need to clarify: Are we speaking specifically from a technical standpoint - is this Web-only, or is it Internet-only.
Pelle Braendgaard: When I say Web, I mean the underlying technology - mobile Web is a part of that.
Jeff Sayre: Yes, that's the same way I think about it.
Pelle Braendgaard: We don't need a new transport protocol.
Manu Sporny: When we talk web we mean HTTP, not CSS, JS, etc. We are talking an Internet standard that tends to use web standards. Using RDFa to specify listings but could just use JSON-LD. Ben Laurie asked why we are we doing this through W3C vs IETF. Doing it in W3C because community groups makes the process easy and we are using a number of web technologies: IRI, HTML, RDFa, JSON-LD in the future. Don't need a web browser for this, can use command line or script. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Dave Longley: No new transport protocol, use HTTP/S.
Dave Longley: Ben Laurie works with Google.
Dave Longley: Is founding director of Apache project
Mike Johnson: Sorry, I don't have voice so I can't hear where the discussion is gone. Just wanted to make a point about the decentralized structure being similar to how banks operate currently. There is overall regulation on the banks, but each can act independently and is able to communicate money transfers between each other.Basically an authority in the future might just be a bank, with a web status from running the authority software.
Dmitry Gorilovsky: We don't need to implement new protocols - we can rely on existing technologies.
Manu Sporny: Sounds like we are all in agreement. Agreement on a number of core principles. Good sign we're all under same delusion or on the right path. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
* Offer creation and discoverability
Manu Sporny: PaySwarm calls offers "listings" but is the same concept. People should be able to express what they want to sell in a decentralized way on the web. Someone else should be able to come to that resource and say the want to buy this without going through a central intermediary. Dmitry, might be a part of your P2P model. PaySwarm came out of a pure P2P network. Two people should be able to come to website and exchange something without a centralized listing service. That is a failure due to giving power to a single entity on the web. Is offer creation and discoverability in scope? [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Dave Longley: +1
Pelle Braendgaard: +1
Jeff Sayre: +1
Mike Johnson: what is the vote for?
Dave Longley: whether or not offer creation/discoverability is in scope
Mike Johnson: +1
Dave Longley: (listings in payswarm)
Mike Johnson: yes
David I. Lehn: +1
Manu Sporny: do people feel that offer/listing creation/discoverability (in a decentralized manner) are in scope for this group? [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Dmitry Gorilovsky: Yes, offer creation/acceptance should be a part of this group.
* Offer acceptance
Manu Sporny: if a listing service is centralized, we will have failed, we usually want power like this to be decentralized on the web. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Pelle Braendgaard: How do you take an offer and execute it.
Dave Longley: Offer acceptance sounds like digital contract.
Pelle Braendgaard: Let's say you see a Listing for something and you want to purchase it - it should be a fairly simple part of this.
Dave Longley: well, digital contract is also important because there is some measure of enforceability/proof of purchase.
Mike Johnson: If that is not part of the process, then there was simply a money transfer
Mike Johnson: not necessarily a purchase
Dave Longley: yes, not a transfer of asset.
Mike Johnson: a purchase implies a receipt
Manu Sporny: Yes, we need a digital receipt and contract/proof of purchase for transferring an asset, which is different from a simple money transfer. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny: Proof of purchase/digital contract important part of the system? [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Is proof of purchase or a digital contract a part of this system?
Pelle Braendgaard: I don't think a contract is necessary for the basic transfer - but for the higher-level (for offers) it should be a part of it.
Dave Longley: i think it's very important, at a minimum, because of legal issues. copyright, etc.
Pelle Braendgaard: I'm not certain if digital signatures are required, but they probably are.
Dave Longley: proving that you have access to a particular asset.
Jeff Sayre: I think digital contracts need to be a part of this system - it's how you pull it off - that's the question. You want an automated offer acceptance process. It needs to be a part of the overall transaction... there's always a type of acceptance.
Jeff Sayre: There is some implicit acceptance by wielding a credit card... there needs to be something similar to that.
Manu Sporny: WebID is there...
Manu Sporny: Underlying identity mechanism in PaySwarm is based off of WebID. You have an IRI to your id, you have public id associated with it, a number of accounts associated with it, which may be public or private. Not full WebID stack. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Jeff Sayre: BrowserID could be a part of it.
Pelle Braendgaard: On authentication protocols, I think that if it is complex in any way - it may not be a necessary core part of it. We could say it's recommended.
Mike Johnson: But we are not going to be focused on the identity part, correct? That is out of scope of this group. I ask because I cannot hear the conversation.
Dave Longley: identity and authentication are important, but we shouldn't necessarily say: "you must use this"
Dave Longley: but instead make recommendations
Jeff Sayre: That might be in keeping w/ what we said about 3rd party developers - point people to an IRI and let people decide whether it's WebID or BrowserID.

Topic: Meetings

Manu Sporny: Can do many things on mailing list, don't want to overload people with meetings. [scribe assist by David I. Lehn]
Manu Sporny: How does every other week sound?
Pelle Braendgaard: +1
Dmitry Gorilovsky: +1
Jeff Sayre: +1
Dave Longley: +1
Jeff Sayre: Good convo.
Mike Johnson: +1

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