Web Payments Community Group Telecon

Minutes for 2011-11-18

  1. PaySwarm at W3Conf
  2. Development Update
  3. JSON-LD Message Format
  4. Technical development after launch
Manu Sporny
Mike Johnson
Mike Johnson, Manu Sporny, Jose 'Manny' De Loera, Pelle Braendgaard, David I. Lehn
Audio Log
Mike Johnson is scribing.

Topic: PaySwarm at W3Conf

Manu Sporny: W3conf presentation went well, audience mostly shy but still had 1 question
Manu Sporny: people came up after talk to discuss what the payment group was doing
Manu Sporny: talked with representatives of browser vendors, got to talk in more depth about payments and browser integration
Manu Sporny: browser vendors interested, but don't want to be identitfied yet. there is interest and they dont feel like our group is going the wrong direction
Manu Sporny: watching people do the online demo was awkward, people didnt quite know where to go
Manu Sporny: going to take some time to make demo website more clear about the direction of the payment process
Manu Sporny: should be easy to find the demo and the spec, too many legacy links right now
Manu Sporny: representatives from web foundation came up to chat about how these payments could be used in developing nations
Manu Sporny: they offered to connect us with representatives from some developing states like those in India and Morocco
Manu Sporny: also mentioned contacts at UN to extend payment into developing areas where poverty is high
Manu Sporny: very hard to get people to join the group, they want a commercial launch or something they can use
Manu Sporny: difficult to get people involved
Manu Sporny: You can see the entire presentation video here: https://www.w3.org/conf/#Web_Payments
Jose 'Manny' De Loera: Manu had a good presentation, got to see it streamed
Manu Sporny: presentations are up and streamable now
Manu Sporny: html5 demos presentation was very good: https://www.w3.org/conf/#Demo_Fest

Topic: Development Update

Manu Sporny: we've been bad about giving these updates on the mailing list, where the tech is at currently - we're making good progress
Manu Sporny: we are going to release a new demo of the payment process, protocol has been re-written
Manu Sporny: we changed from OAuth 1 to a custom protocol, this was after much heated discussion
Manu Sporny: OAuth 1 had ended up making process more complicated
Manu Sporny: OAuth 2 will not solve the tech problems we've run into
Manu Sporny: we'll spec out the protocol as soon as possible
Manu Sporny: technical issues have been worked out, need opinions about implementation feasibility
Manu Sporny: any questions about demo update?

Topic: JSON-LD Message Format

Manu Sporny: typically messages have been using RDF graphs, using vocabs and prefixes
Manu Sporny: this is an example of a digital signature in JSON-LD, note the use of prefixes like "sec:".
Manu Sporny: some feedback from W3 conference is that developers will not like colons in the vocab names
Manu Sporny: if we don't have prefix names, we will eventually have name clashes
Manu Sporny: the problem comes from extensibility and collision prevention
Manu Sporny: examples of vocab clashes, names and descriptions, etc
Manu Sporny: people don't necessarily like prefixes, but if we remove them there will be name clashes
Pelle Braendgaard: I don't like prefixes, personally
Manu Sporny: do we want to use prefix names or limit the system?
Manu Sporny: should the network objects use non-prefix names?
Pelle Braendgaard: I do not like prefixes, complicates code
Pelle Braendgaard: there might be other ways to do it
Pelle Braendgaard: should be one way instead of 20 to extend
Pelle Braendgaard: add attributes in a sub hash or sub array
Pelle Braendgaard: people from Ruby, Python, Javascript world won't like it
Pelle Braendgaard: there may be other extensibility considerations
Manu Sporny: there may be a hybrid alternative, use keywords and if people want to extend it they add prefixes
Manu Sporny: JSON-LD is flexibile enough to allow people to map values to anything they want to - JSON-LD allows you to strip out prefix values but keep object in valid form
Mike Johnson: This isn't exactly talking about vocab prefixes - any feedback on structures that we're using from W3Conf? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny: nothing specific
Manu Sporny: they liked REST API and that we used JSON
Mike Johnson: Yes, we need to figure out if they're going to have an issue with submitting JSON vs. a form POST. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Pelle Braendgaard: I agree about not using JSON for form submission, regular form encoding allows people to just submit data from Ruby or Python
Pelle Braendgaard: form submission might be lowest common denominator
Manu Sporny: wordpress plugin to payment server is JSON
Manu Sporny: someone putting a button on their webpage will only have a simple GET URL to attach
Manu Sporny: FOAF was causing problems with signatures
Pelle Braendgaard: browser to server wouldn't be covered by signatures anyway
Pelle Braendgaard: browser doesnt have a good way of doing signatures on POST data yet.
Manu Sporny: one of the W3 conf presentations was about browser based encryption, so we will want to track that closely.
Manu Sporny: keep an eye on it, move it into the browser, more technical issues but we have addressed a lot of that with the Web ID work
Manu Sporny: complicated digital signatures on receipts needs a more robust object than a form post
Manu Sporny: back to original question of prefixes
Manu Sporny: people generally would like us to remove prefixes
Mike Johnson: I think hybrid approach is good - strange characters in different elements on the page are an issue. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Mike Johnson: If people use strange characters in names, they might hit strange cases... because of using that content in IDs... there may be push-back on people using prefixes. Adding terms, extending vocabularies will be an issue... people will need to add vocabularies and prefixes. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Mike Johnson: I honestly don't know if they like ':' vs. '.' - hard to tell... maybe people have issues with ':' and not '.' [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny: hard to tell why people don't like it, if some people started using the colon, they might not have an issue with it.
Pelle Braendgaard: prefixes are confusing to the eye
Pelle Braendgaard: the whole prefixing thing tended to turn people off XML, for example
Pelle Braendgaard: the prefixes ended up being mostly useless information, lots of management overhead
Pelle Braendgaard: enterprise developers are used to it, but a new generation of developers wont want to deal with it
Pelle Braendgaard: also why extensibility is important
Pelle Braendgaard: don't make the basic stuff complex, allow people to add the complexity on top of that
Pelle Braendgaard: I suspect that it is one of the reasons RDF never took off, average developer will prefer simple naming
Manu Sporny: In general, we should try to get rid of prefixes if we can
Manu Sporny: support for JSON-LD has libraries for javascript, python, ruby, erlang, php and c++
Manu Sporny: but we should try to simplify, I agree.
Manu Sporny: JSON-LD contexts will have foaf and payswarm and security and a number of others.
Manu Sporny: but also generate a series of general terms we can use instead of prefix names
Mike Johnson: Yes, feedback from outside the development group working on PaySwarm is good. This stuff can be confusing - all the prefixes... [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Mike Johnson: I'm all for simplifying it. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
David I. Lehn: Might be complicated...
Manu Sporny: Ok, so we'll try to work this into the technical timeline after we release the demo. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]

Topic: Technical development after launch

Manu Sporny: something we have been concerned about is getting people to use the libraries and develop on the system to give feedback
Manu Sporny: right now we have the wordpress plugin, but we'd like other demos, like a gaming demo of someone playing an online arcade game
Manu Sporny: we also have a radio spectrum purchase demo idea that should be worked on
Manu Sporny: what's the best way to set up the developers to get them building on top of this system
Manu Sporny: Jeff would like to integrated with his smart-up
Manu Sporny: Pelle or Manny interested?
Jose 'Manny' De Loera: The gaming demo arcade idea is interesting, but I'm not a good programmer.
Manu Sporny: not being a programmer might be a good thing, we want people to be able to integrate even if they don't have deep experience programming
Jose 'Manny' De Loera: the arcade idea tends more towards the payment process
Pelle Braendgaard: alreading implementing several things close to an authority, can add integration
Manu Sporny: next week is Thanksgiving, no telecon then
Manu Sporny: week after, we will have a meeting
Manu Sporny: more work on the demo and spec, website will be updated

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