Web Payments Community Group Telecon

Minutes for 2014-03-19

  1. Web Payments Workshop Agenda
  2. Web Payments Mobile Use Cases
  3. Credential-based Login
  4. HTTP Signatures Update
Manu Sporny
Evan Schwartz
Evan Schwartz, Manu Sporny, Brent Shambaugh, Matt Kaufman, Dave Longley, Erik Anderson, David I. Lehn
Audio Log
Evan Schwartz is scribing.
Manu Sporny: Any changes to the agenda? *long pause* If not, moving on.

Topic: Web Payments Workshop Agenda

Manu Sporny: Agenda is almost finalized. ton of big multinational companies and startups attending. only thing that's weak at the conference is participation by retailers and regulators
Manu Sporny: 6 Sessions, each 2 hours, mostly attendee-driven, main purpose of speakers is to kickstart discussion
Manu Sporny: Session 1 — Overview of Current and Future Payment Ecosystems
Manu Sporny: Session 2 — Toward an Ideal Web Payment Experience
Manu Sporny: Session 3 — Back End: Banks, Regulation, and Future Clearing
Manu Sporny: Session 4 — Enhancing the Customer and Merchant Experience
Manu Sporny: Session 5 — Front End: Wallets - Initiating Payment and Digital Receipts
Manu Sporny: Session 6 — Identity, Security, and Privacy
Manu Sporny: Papers that were accepted are at the bottom of the page: http://www.w3.org/2013/10/payments/agenda.html
Manu Sporny: Accepted papers for the workshop can be found on conference page
Manu Sporny: Papers that were not accepted will not be shown on the conference webpage because some of them were quite bad and got bad reviews, authors that want theirs published can publish them through other means
Manu Sporny: Conference starts next monday, fantastic group coming to it
Manu Sporny: All of the minutes will be made public shortly after, if not during the conference
Manu Sporny: Pindar has asked if we can record the video or audio of the conference, we'll have to ask w3c
Manu Sporny: W3C might agree to it, unless the PC or attendees don't want it to happen, or if there isn't the time to set it up

Topic: Web Payments Mobile Use Cases

Manu Sporny: Would you mind giving us an overview of the use cases you've been collecting, Brent? https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases
Brent Shambaugh: Due to discussions with Marcos Caceres and Natasha Rooney am attempting to apply the following template:
Brent Shambaugh: Name: name of the solution
Brent Shambaugh: Use Cases: Key use cases for the solution
Brent Shambaugh: Regions and currencies: Any SDKs or APIs which are available to developers
Brent Shambaugh: With the following things to consider (for use cases):
Brent Shambaugh: (1) Add real money to the service
Brent Shambaugh: (2) Buy a physical good in the real wold (e.g., a cup of coffee)
Brent Shambaugh: (3) Pay for physical service (e.g., gym membership)?
Brent Shambaugh: (4) Convert virtual money back into paper money
Brent Shambaugh: (5) Transfer money from one person to another (even if the second person is not signed up for the service)?
Brent Shambaugh: (6) Buy product online
Brent Shambaugh: (7) Resolve disputes?
Brent Shambaugh: (8) View transactions?
Brent Shambaugh: (9) Secure the wallet
Brent Shambaugh: (10) Etc.
Brent Shambaugh: Right now i have a lot of information, trying to fit it in a template
Brent Shambaugh: Next stage is to weeding stuff out, make it more digestable
Brent Shambaugh: How the phone is communicating with other devices, new hardware or legacy hardware, existing ACH system or replace that entirely with bitcoin or ripple, start adding info to transactions with payswarm and linked data or namecoin or colored coin?
Brent Shambaugh: Emphasis towards trying to use the legacy hardware, difficult to push people to use new stuff
Brent Shambaugh: Convert virtual money back into paper money -- might be a small use case
Brent Shambaugh: If you compare stripe and square, square has POS system, stripe is only API no hardware
Brent Shambaugh: Many systems store reward card or store credit card info in the system
Manu Sporny: Fantastic amount of info on the wiki page, condensing all of the info down is easier than getting the info
Manu Sporny: Natasha was hoping we would have a summary to share with the web payments workshop, need a bit more time to condense it further
Manu Sporny: What are the common features across all of these solutions, what could be standardized and what couldn't, combine that with the CG's work and the workshop attendees input, we'll have some authority to say we've done our homework
Manu Sporny: Can turn the use cases into spreadsheet of features and solutions and just have check boxes for which solutions have which services and tally the most widely spread features, only problem is that may lose most innovative solutions
Brent Shambaugh: Do we care about listing hardware stuff too?
Manu Sporny: Might be good to outline hardware, educates us about what's missing in mobile phones or devices, square reader tells us that card readers are missing from mobile phones
Manu Sporny: Brent should brainstorm and send an email to the mailing list about how to coalesce info into 1-2 page summary
Manu Sporny: Brent should talk to natasha about the most updated list of use cases

Topic: Credential-based Login

Manu Sporny: Now that persona's engineers have been transitioned off the project, we needed to at least propose something for doing transmission of digital wallet provider info
Manu Sporny: Apply identity credentials spec to login on the web. when you login to a website that you need to make a payment on, the process used to transmit payment info should be the same as transmitting address and login info
Manu Sporny: Email is one credential, shipping address is another credential, where you live, age, etc
Manu Sporny: Use same method to transmit email as well as other more complicated data, it's all transmission of credentials.
Manu Sporny: Proposal looked at reasons mozilla thought persona failed other than internal problems. google and yahoo didn't want to add persona support
Manu Sporny: Bypass the email providers so that a number of organizations can digitally sign email address, no longer beholden to email providers.
Manu Sporny: Persona had to run centralized infrastructure while getting the system off the ground, and that cost mozilla a lot of money/time.
Manu Sporny: Proposed decentralized solution based on telehash, didn't know if telehash would work for this but after speaking w/ Jeremie Miller, he said it could support this login mechanism
Manu Sporny: Clearly there are problems with this proposal, but the hope was that other people would specify what they would want to replace parts of the system with
Manu Sporny: Decentralized system could be replaced by any decentralized network, namecoin, other distributed hash table solutions
Matt Kaufman: Is anyone aware of google migrating to google+ single sign-on? They have a timeline migration table here: https://developers.google.com/+/api/auth-migration
Matt Kaufman: Why wouldn't the PGP system work for the public key? Maybe with keys stored in DHT?
Manu Sporny: Making it a little more web-y, trying to remove centralization, login assertions are digitally signed using public-private key crypto. we're using email because the system has to work for people that don't understand crypto. if using an email need a way of mapping email to identity
Manu Sporny: System should be online at all times, could use DNS system and make sure that core identity servers are up all the time, but then there needs to be central organization that maintains system
Manu Sporny: Jeremie Miller has recently picked up telehash full time, he always wanted xmpp to be decentralized
Manu Sporny: If we want attack resistant network, bit torrent uses kademlia, mpaa has tried many times to kill it and it hasn't worked
Manu Sporny: Very attack resilient
Manu Sporny: Another network like bitcoin could do it as well
Manu Sporny: Need to bridge those non-web protocols to the web
Manu Sporny: User should be able to decide when to share or not share info
Matt Kaufman: Nxp has ucode gen2 chip, nfc rfid chip with integrated i2c - do we care about that sort of hardware? Is that out of scope?
Manu Sporny: We do want to support two factor authentication, or three factor authentication, but we can't count on it being in every device so we leave that up to identity provider.
Manu Sporny: If they trust no one they can setup their own system
Manu Sporny: People will pick identity providers based on security and ease of use
Evan Schwartz: Is the idea that you'd store actual credential data in the Kademlia DHT? Do you only store the latter, just store the mapping? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: You'd do the latter, right now. Mapping from email to identity provider, primarily. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny: There is a potential future here where you'd store all credentials in the cloud. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Matt Kaufman: How will the DHT first be populated?
Manu Sporny: Go to some website, go to another that will do email verification, now that website will digitally sign that email is tied to your identity
Manu Sporny: Information is stored at identity provider and then send something to telehash network, everything is encrypted so if you need to login to a website you type in email address and passphrase, query goes to telehash network and if the passphrase is correct then it's used to decrypt identity service. Identity service verifies the email verification and sends it to the website.
Manu Sporny: This is a very loose plan right now, there are a number of security concerns and usability/centralization concerns.
Evan Schwartz: I'm pretty interested in how to move away from everything being stored by an identity provider. I don't like the idea of depending on a specific service. If they're down, or they're out of range/firewalled, or they're trying to block me, that's not good. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Evan Schwartz: How does this system prevent the IdP from impersonating me to a different service? How do you prevent the IdP's from impersonating you. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Brent Shambaugh: An improvement on DHT: http://iptps06.cs.ucsb.edu/papers/Pouw-Tribler06.pdf,
Brent Shambaugh: Use semantic information in the network
Dave Longley: In the future, an IdP could always come along and provide it's own decentralized solution that piggybacks off of this. They could store stuff in the decentralized cloud that avoids this sort of stuff. So, there could be innovation built on top of this. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Dave Longley: An identity provider could come along and store their info in a decentralized cloud
Erik Anderson: Anything I need to know about this before the workshop?
Manu Sporny: No, but we can talk about it there if necessary.

Topic: HTTP Signatures Update

Manu Sporny: This stuff is important for banking and verifying high value transactions
Manu Sporny: Mark Nottingham and Julian Reschke gave us some good input recently, offlist.
Manu Sporny: They were positive but http auth working group is shutting down in 3 months, but they have offered to make it part of http bis working group if necessary.
Manu Sporny: Proposed way to simplify spec for authorization and non-authorization scenarios
Manu Sporny: Could create new signature header, only adds 4-5 paragraphs to the spec
Manu Sporny: Clear ietf path and clear editorial path
Manu Sporny: This allows digital signature authorization on http request, even without logging into a service
Manu Sporny: Integrates with identity credentials and json-ld
David I. Lehn: When should we start updating implementations? Some of these are breaking changes, aren't they?
Manu Sporny: The only thing that should change in library implementations should be addition of signature header
Manu Sporny: There are ways of making the code change without breaking things that are out there
Dave Longley: Maybe all the changes could be done in a deprecation manner and phased out over time
Manu Sporny: Ok, out of time for today. Next week is the Web Payments Workshop, very excited about that. No call next week, we'll pick up again to do a post-workshop wrap up in the first week of April... April 2nd is the next call.

Created by the Web Payments Community Group. Shared with love under a CC-BY license. Thanks to our contributors.